Transcription of Episode 1

[Strumming Music Sound]

Voice 1 (Edgar Villanueva)

Philanthropy as a sector exists because of capitalism and the accumulation of wealth in the first place…

Voice 2 (Stephanie Acosta)

There is no such thing as making wealth that isn’t part of a community…

Voice 3 (Karen Finley)

Why I was so committed to non-profits or NEA or funding for the arts is because then people do not have to be dependent on only the wealthy

Voice 4 (Sara Juli)

Well at the end of the day, you fighting for you work, which we fight for our work in all sorts of other ways

MIGUEL:

[Sung with playful music] Art and money and dance and money and what is the right thing to do with that? When the system's so fucked up, [gets louder and harmonizes] are you for sale?

Hey, everybody. Welcome. My name is Miguel Gutierrez and this is my new podcast! [Applause] Whoo! It's called "Are You for Sale?" We're going to be exposing and questioning the ethics of money and dance making. Yes, I know you're excited. I'm excited too. I want to acknowledge right from the start that I'm speaking to you from the unceded lands of the Lenape people in an area that we now refer to as Brooklyn. And, you know, starting with a land acknowledgement would be important in any occasion. But I think it's especially poignant in regards to this podcast, where we're going to be talking about structures and just things about money and art that often are not talked about in public, or are not sort of acknowledged in public, that are also dealing with issues of inequity and wealth disparity. And, yeah.

I've been working as a professional dance artist for the last 30 years. Yikes! And when I say professional, what I mean is I got paid for what I do [chuckles], or I get paid for what I do, which shouldn't bear mentioning and shouldn't be an extraordinary thing per se. But, in this country, the area that we refer to as the United States of America, getting paid for being an artist kind of actually is a big deal. And getting paid as a dance artist is especially weird. So, why is that the case? And what does it mean when we get paid? And where does that money come from? That's what we're going to talk about here on "Are You for Sale?"

So, I'm going to go back in time. [soft time warp background sounds begin] And talk a little bit about how I got to where I am. So, I started dancing professionally when I was quite young, I guess I was like 22 right out of college well, right when I dropped out of college [chuckles]. And I worked on the West Coast for a choreographer there named Joe Goode. And I worked with a lot of local choreographers as well at the time. And eventually, I moved to New York to work with John Jasperse Company and a lot of other choreographers in New York as well. And along that path, I started making my own work that I would present in like small showcases or group shows, which usually also meant small fees and small fees means like really small [chuckles], like 25 bucks, or like maybe $50 or $100 if you were like super lucky. But, I was okay with that, because I had a main gig, I was working with someone else, and I didn't expect to be making money from the dances that I was making. So I did that for several years. And then in around 2001, I changed my priorities. And I said, “Okay, I'm gonna put the focus on making my own work,” right? I was already making my work, but I decided to put the focus on it. So this is what I had to really start to think about money. [“Money Trees” by Kendrick Lamar plays]

[music fades out] Now, even as a professional dance artist working in companies dancing in companies, I had had to always have side gigs. 

Interjecting Asides from MIGUEL  The hustle!

MIGUEL 

Some of those gigs had been I was a stripper, I was a waiter,

Interjecting MIGUEL 

A sex worker

MIGUEL 

 I was a barista. A terrible one. I worked in an office as a fog clerk. I did temping. 

Interjecting MIGUEL 

Going crazy.. absolutely terrible at that too

MIGUEL 

I was an aerobics instructor. 

Interjecting MIGUEL 

Hated that. Dancer for Bar Mitzvahs…

MIGUEL 

I was an assistant to

Interjecting MIGUEL 

I did that for one day, 

MIGUEL 

an academic briefly, 

Interjecting MIGUEL 

[mockingly] yeah for like a day..

MIGUEL 

that didn't work out very well for me. And my friends all are the same, right? 

Interjecting MIGUEL 

Yep

MIGUEL 

They all have other kinds of gigs. They're pilates instructors, (Interjecting MIGUEL: pilates everywhere) yoga instructors, 

Interjecting MIGUEL    

Uh-huh

MIGUEL 

babysitters, (Interjecting MIGUEL: They take care of your kids…) servers or waitstaff, (Interjecting MIGUEL: Box office managers…They feed you food.. ), waiters, caterers,

They're also you know, artist assistants or personal assistants (Interjecting MIGUEL: artist/administrators, they… make the work [chuckles]) or reception at such and such place or such and such firm…

Interjecting MIGUEL
secretaries… do they still say that?

MIGUEL 

or yada, yada, yada, yada. That's, you know, all of which is to say that they don't get paid for dancing, necessarily, right? This is how they're making their money. The side hustle is actually the main income source. But when I wanted to focus on making my own work, I thought, Okay, well, I have to raise some money to like pay the people who work for me, right? Like it's not right to ask people to work for you for free, right? At first, I just had people like, I actually paid them like in tokens, subway tokens, because that's when we used to have subway tokens. And then I started giving them small stipends you know, and in the early aughts, how we did that was like we had benefits in person. This is way before crowdsourcing, I mean crowdfunding. I also didn't pay myself, right? For many, many, many, many, many years, I didn't pay myself. And you know, I was lucky life was cheaper, I lived in a live-work space that cost very little money. After a few years of working this way, I started getting invited by dance venues to present my work. And those started to pay more significant fees, right? not really enough to truly cover the cost of making a piece. But it was a lot more than just raising money on my own. And you know, raising money on your own is like, basically, like putting on a benefit, for example, is basically like putting on a second show, right? You have this much labor involved in like putting people together and organizing and all this stuff. So it's very exhausting. And then I started applying for grants. [Echoed suspense tone] Grants.

And there's a bunch of foundations and organizations you can apply to. [“Popcorn” music begin] And so I mean, you know, I say a bunch, I mean, like, I don't know, three, four, or five, maybe in the whole country that you can apply to as an independent dance artist when you're starting out and maybe even as you keep going? So, you know, I just kind of applied. Got a lot of rejections. But after a few years, I started getting some of these grants, and some of these awards. The awards are especially satisfying, because you don't have to apply for them a lot of times. Uh, yeah, here's like a little laundry list of accomplishments. [MIGUEL begins to talk quickly as music intensifies] Okay, there was Arts International, that was the first big one, then there was like a NYFA fellowship. I got that twice, 2004 and 2008, then NPN, which is the national performing arts network I guess? National Performance Network actually. The Josephine Foundation, the Trust for Mutual understanding, which I don't think gives those kind of grants out anymore. The National Endowment for the Arts, which I actually got once. Map Fund which I got a bunch of times Lambent fellowship, which was a three year fellowship. Creative Capital, which you can only get once. Foundation for Contemporary Arts Award, which you can only get once. The Guggenheim, damn! but you only get once. And National Dance Project, which I got a couple times, the United States Artist Award, which I think you can only get once? Maybe you can get it twice? Bossak Heilbron which was kind of a miracle. Jerome Foundation, what you get maximum, like three times, I think... kind of. [Music stops and talking pace returns to normal] You know, it's like, kind of a status thing, right? Like to say, like, you've got these things is, I guess, a public way of stating some kind of legitimacy for your work. Anyway, I started thinking of myself as like a real artist. I mean, I was always a real artist, but I was like, real in the sense that I was making all my money from art making, right? It was either from making stuff or teaching or touring. And that was, and that is, incredible. I'm not gonna lie, that just, just is incredible. And honestly, on some other level, I kind of felt like that was correct. Like, this is what I'm on the planet to do. So this should be the way that I earn my living. And, you know, one of the high points, I was able to pay myself a regular salary of [sparkle shine sound effect] $48,000 a year! [“Brick House” by The Commodores begins] You know, this is like: Oh my god, this is like, amazing. And I thought, okay, I've really, really gotten somewhere, this is kind of major. And eventually, I was able to get the Doris Duke Artist Award, which was super incredible, because that was a lot of money, and I was able to buy an apartment. [crowd cheering] An apartment?! Whaat?!? Girl what are you complaining about?

“Brick House” 

Ow! She's a brick house. She's mighty mighty, just letting it all hang out. Oh she's a brick...

[Music slowly fades]

MIGUEL 

So, you know, it's, it's like, I did the calculation. And over the course of my career, in terms of the amount of money that I raised, like grant writing wise, I've probably raised about $425,000 [whistle], out of which I've paid almost 40 people, right, not all at once [chuckle], but like, from project to project to project to project and managers and collaborators. Over the years, that amounts about 40 people. And then I've probably received around $375,000 in award money [MIGUEL aside: okay] . So this is like really fantastic. And then [car screeching to a stop] 2018. So in 2018, I started working on a new group performance called "This Bridge Called My Ass", [suspense sound effect starts] which I was and continue to be very excited about. I thought, okay, I'm at the top of my game here with this dance making thing I'm doing pretty well, I know what I'm making, I know how I want to work, I know what I need for what I'm doing. I didn't have a manager at the time. So I was administrating the project on my own. And I thought, Okay, I'm gonna pay these people well, and again, in the dance world, paying somebody well, what that means in my world is like $25 an hour, right? That's kinda like, wow, that's like a good paying gig. Anyway, I applied for a bunch of stuff I did all the numbers, the budget came to about $101,000. Right, now that's for a project that was going to take about 20 to 25 weeks to make, six performers including myself, one dramaturg, a lighting designer, one other person who helped with some props, that's the amount of money that it was going to cost for all of that. So it sounds like a big number. But when you break it down, you start to realize like, okay, that's not like actually that much money, over the course of like, what, 20-25 weeks, which aren't even like, in a row, right? You rehearse, you rehearse for a few weeks, and you don't rehearse for a while, then you come back together, and you rehearse, yada, yada, yada, right? And so on and so on. So I went and played for a bunch of stuff. And I only got one Grant. [sad trombone sound] And I was like, wait, what? [chuckles] One? I only got one? How do you make a piece with just one grant? Right.

And again, I want you to know that I'm saying that knowing that so many of my peers, and so many people in this field, are making stuff all the time with no grant support at all. Right. But here I was, what seemed like a pretty significant stage of my career. I had gotten support before. And now suddenly, for this piece that I felt was, in some ways, the most exciting piece I was getting to make had very, very little support. I know that applying for grants is always a crapshoot, right, like, there's always the chance, you're not going to get the grant, like for example, MAP, which is one of the few national funders you can apply to, they get about 800 to 1000 applications per funding cycle, right? That's once a year, right? They have a funding deadline. And that's like for all of their programs. Dance is just one of their programs. They only fund, out of all those applications, 40 projects, [audience gasp] on average. So that's about 4.4% of applicants getting support from that one organization. Look, no organization owes you money, no sole organization could take responsibility for supporting your entire project. But what do you do? [chuckles] Right? And and [sighs] more to the point. How do you pay the people who work with you? Right? I could take the hit on my own, I guess, right? Because I have other ways of making money, teaching, you know, doing lectures, whatever. But, what do you do with the people who walk into the room to work with you? Like, what are the ethical responsibilities you have to those people? [Pensive music begins]

Around the same time that I was facing these questions, I had an interesting conversation with a peer, a friend, named Sara Juli.

[Audio from conversation with SARA JULI]

MIGUEL

Hello!

SARA JULI 

Hello! 

MIGUEL 

How are you?

SARA JULI   

Oh, my Goooood, I'm having one of those days... (fades away)

[Narration from MIGUEL] 

Now, SARA JULI is an artist in her own right. And she's also a financial consultant to artists. And I was at Bates Dance Festival. And we got to talking about this. 

[Audio from Interview]

MIGUEL 

And so do you remember what you told me around the time that I told you that I hadn't gotten all those grants? [chuckles]

SARA JULI 

I think I do. Although I..

MIGUEL 

I could also jog your memory.

SARA JULI 

I was gonna say… I've had many conversations with many different people about fundraising since then,

MIGUEL 

Basically, I had, when I came to guest talk in your class at Bates, I was complaining about the fact that I had applied for a bunch of stuff for the project I was making at the time, “This Bridge Called My Ass,” and I had only gotten one thing.

SARA JULI

Right. Okay. Well, I think what we spoke about and what I speak to a lot of artists about is asking individual donors who were part of your sphere…

MIGUEL

Yup

SARA JULI:

People who had supported you either as audience members as colleagues, peers, friends, neighbors, advocates, and big big fans of going out in a strategic way, in a thoughtful way and asking them to support your craft and this piece in particular. Ideally, you'd be in person, you spent some time connecting with each other. I think what's important, then what's important to talk about your craft, right? So I think a lot of people skip over, they think, “Oh, I'm just going to be asking someone for money.” And that gives a lot of nerves um around just the asking part. But if you kind of back into it, no, like what what what are you, I mean, to fit your theme, What are you, what are you selling? What is your contribution to the planet with this piece of art that you've made, and talk about it and talk about it in an organic way, talk about it in a genuine way. Talk about it in a way that is not forced but is like using your own words. At some point, you're going to need to pivot the conversation to the ask itself, which is challenging, but something that can be learned. And that is something that I teach and empower artists to do. To say, okay, well, now I've spoken about its value so how do I pivot? And you you pivot like this, where you say, well, it's bit, you know, "Now that you know a little bit about This Bridge Called My Ass," or "Now that you know a little bit about this new piece I've made, I wanted to talk to you about fundraising and the efforts that I'm making to raise money for this piece. I have received some grant money, and I'm looking to raise this particular amount of money from a group of people." Instead of saying to somebody, can you give me $1,000, towards this piece? That rather you would say, can you join this circle of donors? Or can you join this leadership circle? Or can you join this community of givers who are working in effort towards making this art possible? 

MIGUEL

I forgot that part. [Both Laugh] Probably should have written that down. 

SARA JULI 

Yeah. [They both laugh again]

Well, it's much easier to say to somebody can you give to my leadership circle? 

MIGUEL 

Yeah. 

SARA JULI 

Which is, starts at $1,000 and up. And up that it is to say, Can can you please give me $1,000? Now, you can certainly say... [She fades out]

[Narration from MIGUEL]

So I did what Sara told me to do, I looked at my list, and I picked like three of the top folks who have given me the biggest dollar amounts over the years. And I took them to lunch. And I did this kind of pitch, which was super hard, actually, for me to do. And Sara had said, okay, you have to give the dollar amount of what you want. You have to say, I need X amount. I couldn't do it. I couldn't say the number.

[Audio from Interview]

MIGUEL 

I… It was intense to see that at the moment of the ask I how much I balked. You know, like or how I, I kept it abstract. I kept it general, and I had practice, okay, you're gonna ask for $5,000 or you're gonna ask for $4,000. And I was kind of like.. [nervously] “If you could just give a little more this year...” [They both laugh]

[Narration from MIGUEL]

It was too hard. I couldn't say the number. I was too embarrassed. But I just said like, I'm gonna really need your support this year. [The Belleville “O Maria” plays in background] And you know, it worked. I got some money. I mean, I got more than I usually get, right, that year in general. But, [sighs] more to the point I couldn't... I couldn't dream my way into a different way of getting money to make my work. [Background music continues]

Something else happened to me in 2018. I don't remember who recommended it. But I ended up reading Edgar Villanueva's book Decolonizing Wealth: Indigenous wisdom to heal divides and restore balance, and it blew my mind. But if you want to know why… [Carnival Music Begins] you have to listen to the next episode! 

[Laughs] Cliffhanger bitches!

Alright, thanks for listening to the first episode. I hope you'll come back for more. In our upcoming episode I’ll be speaking with Edgar Villanueva, author of Decolonizing Wealth. And I will also speak with interdisciplinary artist and art bruja Stephanie Acosta. I’ll also be looking at some of the history of the relationship between art and money to see how we got to where we are. And then in other episodes down the line I’ll be talking with the artists of the NEA four and the man who was the chairman of the national endowment for the arts during those early 90s Culture Wars, and so much more. So please subscribe to this podcast on whatever platform you've made it to us on so you can stay up to date with us. “Are You for Sale?” is supported by the National Performance Network's storytelling fund, The Brown University Arts initiative, and Dance NYC's Dance Advancement Fund. Thanks for that support. Our managing producer is Michelle Fletcher. Our production assistant is Jake Cedar. Shout out to Katie Heinzer for her help in the early research stages of this whole thing. And shout out to my amazing boyfriend Marley Trigg Stewart for putting up with me taking over half of our apartment to record this podcast. The title of this podcast is a line from Morgan Parker's Poem "Welcome to the Jungle", which is in her incredible book "There are more beautiful things than Beyoncé" If you would like to know more about anything we spoke about today, including SARA JULI's work, thank you Sara, please go to areyouforsalepodcast.com where you can also sign up for our email list. If you want to write us directly you can do so at areyouforsalepodcast@gmail.com. And please follow us on Instagram @areyouforsalepodcast. Until next time, stay weird, make art, stay blessed, not stressed. Adios everyone. [Music fades]